Satan’s Witness
Thursday, February 4th, 2010
I’ve never had to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses around here. I’ve run into a couple of Mormon missionaries a couple of times, but never a JW. I’ve heard all kinds of funny stories about people messing with the missionaries that come to their door, but when an older gentleman and a younger guy came knocking on my door Tuesday morning, I tried a totally new tactic. (Read: all of the funny stories flew right out of my head and I got tongue tied!) I just dialogued a bit. Turns out, it was probably the best thing as the older guy said his parents died atheist, so he probably knows half of my arguments. I told him about being a minister’s wife and now an atheist. He laughed and said, “Oh, my!” He gave me a book and said he would be back in a week. I think I will read it and annotate the shit out of it. Any suggestions for how to deal? I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, but I don’t want to reinforce any angry atheist stereotypes, either. I am not very quick witted when it comes to people I don’t know. I can be sharp around people I know and am comfortable around, but my default position around strangers is still “sweet” no matter how hard I try to change it. 
One thing I will give both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons credit for is that at least they care that you’re going to hell. I know the arguments against proselytizing, but they do it to adults, not disguised as programs for children as other denominations do. So I feel conflicted: on one hand, I don’t want to be proselytized. On the other hand, don’t people care that, according to their doctrine, I am going to burn for eternity?
Tags: Jehovah's Witness
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February 4th, 2010 at 4:42 am
Yeah. If you’re familiar with the Bible, or know how to research on the internet, I suggest you jot down contrary verses to the ones quoted therein.
[e.g.
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
vs
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)]
I’ve not yet failed to find such to the JW’s quotes I’ve seen.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:17 am
http://www.bible.ca/jw-questions.htm
February 4th, 2010 at 6:03 am
I think you should be nice to them not confrontational, give them a cup of tea. Don’t let them away with anything, but don’t lead them anywhere – they have enough rope already.
I don’t think you need to come across as the athiest who has all the answers. Simple nonsense is still nonsense.
Also, I think there is nothing more devastating for a prosletyzer than you not having an answer for something, but still not accepting their nonsense by default.
Alternatively…. spike the tea and give them a blood transfusion. Mwahahahahaha!
February 4th, 2010 at 6:21 am
You are probably already familiar with this, but in the 1-100 chance that you are not…
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
This will give you a little extra if you do what John Morales said.
Also, see what science they are bashing. In JW’s case it’s medicine (what with their blood transfusion phobias, etc). Go to http://whatstheharm.net/ They have a section just for the JW’s… http://whatstheharm.net/jehovahswitnesses.html
There are also the multiple end times predictions that the Watchtower society made…and were wrong http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm
Once you point that out to them, ask them about false prophets….
There’s all sorts of good stuff. And this is where I wish I had a spy camera to watch (NO! NOT FOR THAT, YOU PERVERTS!) because I’m positive that you will be impeccably polite, pleasant and sweet, which will make their heads explode!
February 4th, 2010 at 7:27 am
One thing is they are typically prepared with answers to all their agenda points, kind of like a script. I never enter into that stuff, just talk to them about what I know about the bible, things I’ve learned which I had problems with. Last time I spoke with JW’s they seemed very happy that I considered them Christians. I think their ideas are crazy (did not tell them that), but really only by degree crazier than other Christians.
I know the arguments against proselytizing, but they do it to adults, not disguised as programs for children as other denominations do.
That’s a brilliant point, never thought of it that way.
February 4th, 2010 at 7:31 am
So I feel conflicted: on one hand, I don’t want to be proselytized. On the other hand, don’t people care that, according to their doctrine, I am going to burn for eternity?
This is an issue that boggles my mind. It was one of the most profoundly horrifying aspects of being a Christian to me – this notion that so many people were going to suffer eternal torment. I suppose it may have been exacerbated by the fact that my dad has been an atheist since college, so there was that very personal terror. But I was bent – bent hard towards convincing people I didn’t even like, that they needed salvation.
The idea that there are Christians who not only don’t care, but act outright gleeful about the prospect of non-believers going to hell is absolutely repugnant to me. Even as an atheist, this attitude is nothing shy of absolutely repugnant and offensive.
As far as hanging with the JWs, I am all for polite – though I wasn’t always. They aren’t a whole lot off from the Mormons and I rather appreciate the opportunity to talk about what *I* believe. Nothing feels quite so nice as deconverting a Mormon or JW.
I would also note…While they are generally genuinely concerned about your soul, this is not why JWs and Mormons go on these missions. It ultimately has much more to do with sending men into the world to be challenged – to have their beliefs challenged by others. And keep in mind that the Mormons at least, purposely dump their missionaries into unfamiliar territory for a reason – it makes it extremely hard for them to back out. If they do, they are literally stuck in a strange town with nothing.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:25 am
DuWayne, I think you’re absolutely right about evangelism, at least in most cases. I try to be nice to evangelists, because I figure they’re trying to keep me from going to hell, which is nice of them. The fundie-types who get really excited about being the only ones in heaven are kind of scary to me. Although, a lot of them are varying degrees of Calvinist, which makes it less offensive. Even in the non-fundie Calvinist denominations, we didn’t evangelize much, because hey– if you’re elect, you’re elect, and if you’re not, nothing we can do about it. We were just not as smug about being elect ourselves as the fundies are (because you really don’t know if you are or not). Of course, this transfers a lot of the nasty theology directly onto God.
About the JWs– I wouldn’t bother going point-by-point with them. You’re about as likely to convert them as they are to convert you. I’m glad you were nice to them, though, all the JWs I see around are really young and I feel bad when people are mean to them. Last time I saw JWs, they came to the door of my co-op and I told them I didn’t want to talk religion, but if they came in, we could get them some coffee and maybe some breakfast if they wanted it, or at least they could warm up (it was no degrees outside). I just meant to be nice, but they scrambled at the mention of coffee (whoops). Probably they were also intimidated by the co-op and the band posters on the door. I feel bad for them, stuck in a strange town with no friends or family or anything when they’re so young.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:28 am
I think you should just answer the door naked with all the contrary scripture taped to your body for their ‘inspection’.
I will say that while they do try and convert adults they often do it with their KIDS in tow. Just as my dh…..he’s rung many a doorbell AND had to recite scripture at Madison Square Garden to a full crowd when he was six.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:38 am
One thing the JW’s have going for them is that they do *not* believe in Hell – they believe that you just won’t be resurrected in paradise with the rest of them. You’ll die–the unconscious no-self kind of dying–and stay dead. They also believe that you have demons. Literal ones, that are keeping you from seeing the Truth.
They do indeed witness to children. I was one of them. When I was 6 my mother (who was gravely ill) had a visiting nurse, who told me that in the New System (what they call the post-Armaggedon time) my mother would be in perfect health and I would get to live forever with her in paradise on Earth. My parents (atheist and lapsed Catholic) reluctantly let me go to meetings with her, and I stayed with the JWs for the next eight years. I became so zealous that a normal form of discipline in my house was to take away my JW ’study books’ or ground me from attending Kingdom Hall.
It was very hard to undo some of the faulty wiring in my head that resulted.
Good luck with them.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:46 am
I just moved into a house (the bro/musician house) and I was told that “they” will be coming. If you ignore them, they will be back-they have charts and lists of the area they are canvassing and if they don’t mark you off the list, they will be back. Good luck to ya.
Kriss
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com
February 4th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Sometimes I miss the JWs as they used to come by my house about once a week (at my invitation, mind you, after their initial visit). They were very sincere and we had some interesting conversations. I didn’t conceal my atheism or my firm conviction that many of their ideas are unsound but we kept it civil. My wife finally asked them not to come around any more as she needed my help around the house, not spent wasting it talking to folks on the doorstep. I haven’t seen them since. Now that I’m more familiar with their beliefs and the real harm that has resulted I would not be so civil, which would probably be even more interesting.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
You are a braver soul than me, I usually hide in the back room or run away. I think you seem articulate and smart, and very kind, and that you should just “go with your gut” if they come back over. And yes, they do not believe that a soul is eternal, so its not really hell they want to drag you out of. So, nothing personal, just that your roof top isn’t really on fire in their eyes, so to speak.
February 4th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Oh, evangelizers are such a time suck! Do the annotation thing if you feel like it, but “I am confident in my spirituality and I’m aware of your beliefs, thank you for thinking of me, please do not come back.” will do.
Until they get aggro. We used to get JW literature open to anti-witch arguments shoved up right in our screen door, which seems very threatening to me. (The Baptists in my old neighborhood did the same thing.)
February 4th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Annotate the provided book, fill it with post-its with notes and links and the like.
When they return, hand it over and say. “Now its your turn, come back when you have read this”.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
I am new to your site as of a few hours ago. I am in tears, realizing how many people are out there, experiencing what has been my life for the past 4 yrs.
Last year I became an atheist over a span of 3-4 months, and am still very private about it.
I was raised amish/mennonite in a very poor family. The beliefs of marriage, parenting etc. are extremely warped. I could go on and on about the atrocities of my childhood.
But I wanted to thank you for allowing me into your life. At some point I may invite you into my story, but am still processing so much.
You encouraged me today!!
February 4th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
I would just ask them a lot of questions. Like, really? So you’re doing this for free? And in spite of that, you may not make the 144,000, so why bother?
Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to forget about making the 144,000 and just live your life happily and then die and become dust forever?
February 4th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Good luck with it, whatever method you try. I hope, being older, this guy might actually have a conversation. The one time I tried to engage Mormon missionaries who came to my door, I had the same frustrating experience as talking to low-level tech support about a complex problem. They have a very simple script, and will not deviate from it or apply any thought whatsoever to what you say. They will just keep going with the next script prompt.
But with the Mormons, the missionaries themselves are almost kids. At least I could truthfully tell them that my parents had been excommunicated from the Mormon church. That was fun
[I must admit, for those of you with a Catholic background, it's a whole lot easier to get excommunicated by the Mormons.]
February 5th, 2010 at 1:29 am
Olivia, be strong and know that there are many of us who have gone through what you are experiencing. I hope you can find some emotional support locally.
My last church before I left 46 years of faith behind was a Mennonite church. I was not born Mennonite (last name was not Yoder, Gingrich, Hershberger, Kauffman, etc). I liked the anti-war tradition, but I found they could be very insular and judgemental if a disagreement arose. Shunning those who didn’t conform.
If you live near a city of any size, there will be ex-believers who might be able to help you through this. There are certainly many books, and websites like this one, that have been helpful to me.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:48 am
As someone else mentioned, JWs don’t believe in hell. They’re talking to you for two reasons. 1) They believe Jehovah instructed them to go around talking to people. 2) You haven’t told them to go away. It’s their duty to spread the word to people who want to hear it, and as long as you haven’t told them to go away, there’s a chance you want to hear it, so they’ll keep going. It’s not about saving you, but about fulfilling their obligation to the big guy.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:06 am
To paraphrase Rorschach in Watchmen: When they visit my place, none of them seem to understand — I’m not being evangelised by them, they’re being evangelised by me!
<grin>
February 5th, 2010 at 8:41 am
Hi, Olivia! I hope you enjoy hanging around with us.
This post (and especially the post’s title) has put this heretical poem in my head for the past couple days:
Jehovah buried,Satan dead, by E. E. Cummings
Jehovah buried,Satan dead,
do fearers worship Much and Quick;
badness not being felt as bad,
itself thinks goodness what is meek;
obey says toc,submit says tic,
Eternity’s a Five Year Plan:
if Joy with Pain shall hand in hock
who dares to call himself a man?
go dreamless knaves on Shadows fed,
your Harry’s Tom,your Tom is Dick;
while Gadgets murder squack and add,
the cult of Same is all the chic;
by instruments,both span and spic,
are justly measured Spic and Span:
to kiss the mike if Jew turn kike
who dares to call himself a man?
loudly for Truth have liars pled,click;
where Boobs are holy,poets mad,
illustrious punks of Progress shriek;
when Souls are outlawed,Hearts are sick,
Hearts being sick,Minds nothing can:
if Hate’s a game and Love’s a fuck
who dares to call himself a man?
King Christ,this world is all aleak;
and lifepreservers there are none:
and waves which only He may walk
Who dares to call Himself a man.
February 5th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Olivia –
If you have not been, exchristian.net is a wonderful forum, where you can find the support of a great many caring people. There are people on that forum who have gone through many of the same sorts of things that you have. It is a very safe place for people who have been through an abusive relationship with their faith. It is good to just take a look around and read about the experiences of others – read the responses and even sometimes drop a comment, until you decide to post you own conversations.
It is easy to stay anonymous. And the best part, is that you can visit as much or as little as you like – regardless, there are always folks around to offer support and empathy.
And for the record, while my relationship with religion was much different than your own – I have also been through a very abusive relationship with religion. You are very far from being alone and unlike what some theists believe, many of us care about you. One does not need gods to walk in love and care very much for other people – whether we know them or not.
February 5th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Laura, depends on the area, I guess. Where I grew up, most everyone’s parents worked. On school snow days, you could bet your paycheck that the JWs would be knocking on the doors to talk to the young folks (teens and preteens) that were home for the day, often alone. My mom got tired of coming home from work to find copies of the Watchtower around so she told me to tell them I was suffering from Hepatitis, and were they up-to-date on their gammaglobulin shots? They stopped coming around.
The most recent pair I’ve encountered asked me if I was interested in living forever, and were a little taken aback when I cackled. I was polite but told them I was very happy with my current belief system, thanks.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Going “door-to-door” is an attempt to save “wordly” people from being destroyed, quite painfully, at Armageddon. However, the majority of the Jehovah’s Witness are just doing it to get their time in. (Active members have to contribute 20-120 hours per month witnessing to strangers.)
You may not be able to change their mind, but you can plant a seed of doubt. The majority of witnesses are tormented by a bit of doubt anyway (I mean, who wouldn’t be conflicted by an organization that told you to sell all your possessions, not have kids and not go to school because the end of the world was coming in 1975? And now, in 2010, you’re a 69-year-old woman who has to work full-time because you don’t have any savings…that’s my grandma, by the way).
I suggest annotating the hell of the book they left with you…and then, just ask questions. Don’t offer counter-arguments…just ask lots of questions that make them search for answers. Perhaps their attempt to answer will actually get them to think for themselves. It’s a magical thing!
February 6th, 2010 at 8:23 am
Rich H provides many links, but the all must be taken with a grain of salt, products of those with axes to grind.
In the past week, Canada’s Supreme Court has ruled in favor of JWs in one of the cases he writes of: (accuser ordered to pay for both sides of the legal proceedings…an indication of what the Court thinks of the case?)
http://www.tdgnews.it/en/?p=1829
Another JW ‘victim’ is written of here:
http://tinyurl.com/mtlotn
With regard to failed end prophesies, it’s happened once within our lifetime, unless you’re under 35, in which case it’s never happened. To be sure, a failed EOW date is embarassing, but since Christians are to ‘keep on the watch,’ I don’t think it’s as much of a black eye as some would have us believe:
http://tinyurl.com/cq6pnp
February 6th, 2010 at 8:27 am
Oh, and BTW, someone else suggests answering the door naked. But when some fellow tried that with my pal Mona, a registered nurse, she said “you don’t have anything I haven’t seen before.”
February 6th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
I would add a BIG caution to Duwayne’s recommendation of exchristian.net:
I found it that it could be a very nasty place! I posted my story there; at the time I was only a year or so out of the church and exploring “non-faith”. I made the mistake of referencing a certain part of my old life as a christian in a positive light, and two inhabitants there tore into me and said I had “shit for brains”. (Names were “ex-pastor Dan” and “atheist tooth fairy”). It was completely out of the blue, and it really shocked me, at a time when I was looking for support and help. I think they wanted everyone on that site to be full of bitterness and hatred towards christianity and christian friends, like they were. I haven’t been back to that site since.
February 6th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Portwes, de-conversion.com is a rather nice place.
(Too nice for me.)
February 6th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
I have very positive experiences with EX-christian.net. Though I would admit that there are a few loose cannons out there, most only give back what they get. ZDenny types would certainly get blasted, but the sincere questioning person is normally treated with great respect.
I post there often and would readily defend anyone who is being respectful.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
Portwes -
I am really sorry to hear that. My experience there was rather limited, but uniformly very pleasant – and I by no means was inclined to focus entirely on the bad, but talked about the good as well. The good is an integral aspect of my experience, without it becoming an atheist might well have been easier.
I am not sure, given it has never happened to me, but I have the impression that the moderators are pretty good about quashing that kind of shit.
mlee -
I am not sure that religionists talking trash would last long before losing posting privileges. They seem to have pretty firm rules in place to keep it a safe place to discuss leaving one’s faith.
February 7th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
About ex-christian.net: I must say that dozens of people there were very helpful, and I even met up with one for coffee here in Portland. There were only those two people that seemed to have a chip on their shoulders, but being as I was a pretty fresh and green agnostic, maybe I was being overly sensitive, and they scared me right off.
I’m not sure where the moderators were that day, but I had the impression that it was not being moderated at all.
Maybe to be fair I should give it another try, but there are plenty of other ex-christian types of websites where that kind of stuff is absent, so I guess I’m finding what I need in this and other similar sites.
February 7th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
Olivia, feel free to email me anytime. I am not normally so slow to respond to comments and email as I have been this week, so I would love to hear from you.
And thanks everyone for your comments. I learned a few things! What I know of JW consists primarily of a scary documentary I watched with my parents. I’m pretty sure it was biased.
February 7th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Oh, and re: ex-christian.net, I enjoyed sharing my story there. I found it too BIG to really get involved in the forums, though. I would find an interesting thread that had a comment on page 1 or 2 I wanted to respond to, only to realize it had 15 pages and everything I was thinking, someone had already said!
I never found a good place to jump in.
February 28th, 2010 at 2:04 am
If you greet them at the door with a bloody knife and say, “Can you come back in an hour? We haven’t finished with the virgin yet.” I’m told they will cross you off the list.