Everything I Knew About Atheism Was Wrong
Saturday, January 30th, 2010
Sitting at a bar stool on Dickson Street with Steve and our friend and former classmate, Leah, I realized how many wrong assumptions I’d made about atheism. We were there to chat and gossip about our undergrad years, and I realized how much fun I was having. Not evil sinful fun–we weren’t getting sloshed, but it reminded me of the fun I had in church and at church camp in a more fun setting. 
If you’d asked me five years ago, I probably would have thought that atheists in bars were there to get drunk and numb the pain of having to live with a hole in their hearts. I thought about how I was wrong on a lot of things. In fact, come to think of it, everything I thought about atheists turned out to be wrong. Like the following:
- They’re full of anger toward God. A lot of atheists do get angry about things, but not God. Instead, we tend to get frustrated over the way we’re treated by Christians and other groups with prejudices.
- Everything is meaningless and hopeless, and there is a hole in their lives that only God can fill. On the contrary, everything is much more meaningful and brighter. Most atheists live lives full of meaning. There are those who don’t, but living a hopeless life is not limited to atheists. I know many Christians who are no less hopeful than some atheists.
- They’re mostly angry, bitter, selfish, miserable people. Most of the atheists I have met are bright, funny, and easygoing. Of course, people are people and nobody is perfect, so there are a few that are angry, bitter, selfish, and/or miserable. But this hardly characterizes them all.
- They have no morals. You don’t need the Bible for morals, I learned. Have you read some of the stuff that’s in there? Yikes! Atheists are less likely (both in actual numbers and percentages) to be in prison. And they tend to have better arguments for their morals because they are based on pragmatism, not “God’s making us do it that way.”
- Their arguments are easily refuted. Well, if that were true, I wouldn’t be an atheist.
- They weren’t true Christians, etc. For that, I am simply going to point you here. (Why say something that has already been said better than I could say it?
) - There is no community. Granted, the church community is more established, and that does seem to be the number one thing I hear when fellow de-converts list anything they miss about religion. But there is a wonderful, supportive community online. If you are a mother, consider joining Atheist Moms on Yahoo. I also love hanging around other blogs and Free Jinger forums (though not an atheist site, it’s a site where many women of several faiths, atheist included, get together and talk about the evils of fundamentalism), answering emails, and interacting with fellow atheist friends on Facebook. And actual communities are coming together. The Parenting Beyond Belief people are working on some of that, along with many other community freethinker groups, etc.
- They want to kill babies (abortion), allow homosexuals to take over the country, and indoctrinate our kids with Darwinism. Not all atheists agree on any one issue. Except maybe evolution. I’ve met pro-life and anti-gay rights atheists, though granted, the latter tends to be pretty rare. I would hardly characterize it in that way, however.
Of course, not every atheist fits this nicer version of atheism I write about. Like negative portrayals of atheists, this one is a generalization. Everyone is a unique individual, no matter which race, gender, religious groups, or any group you belong to. This is basedon my personal experiences of how I was wrong.
In fact, the only stereotype I had in my head about atheists that turned out to be true is that all atheists tend to not believe in God.
What stereotypes were shattered when you found yourself becoming an atheist or interacting with them? (If applicable!)
Notice this atheist is also male. But there are lots of totally rockin' female atheists and agnostics out there, too! Raise your hand if you're one of them. (And if you have red hair, all the better!)
Tags: atheist
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January 30th, 2010 at 2:01 am
Many of the stereotypes I had of atheists fell away pretty quickly after my deconversion. Probably the one that hung on the longest is that they live lives without meaning. I think, though, that this one hung on because I was drifting with respect to career and meaningful relationships. I had been as a Christian, too, which is probably why I had felt that meaning came from God: The only meaning in my life then was from my religion. In the years since then, though, I have developed more connections with people and more of a sense of what I can do in life, and along with those developments, my sense of meaning in life has increased.
January 30th, 2010 at 2:52 am
*puts hand up*
I’m told there are shimmers of red in my hair in certain lights, but even if that doesn’t count, I’m absolutely, indisputably female and atheist.
For community, don’t forget meetup.com has real-life atheist get-togethers, and if you google “atheist” (or “humanist”*) + wherever you are, you might be surprised to find some other groups too. I’ve been surprised at some of the locations that have active groups. Or start one. I did!
*Yes, I know they aren’t exactly the same thing.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:03 am
Well, I’m miserable and crotchety, but it has little to do with the fact that I don’t believe in God.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:40 am
Luke 6:32
“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.”
Atheists have no reason to love anyone but themselves. I have found in life that selfish people can be fun to hang out with because selfish people can be really funny. However, I also found out that the reason they are really funny is because they are super insecure. If you agree with them, then they are your friend. However, if you disagree with them, then they will hate you.
Here is some proof
http://debrayton.blogspot.com/2009/12/zdenny-is-banned.html
http://www.lousycanuck.ca/?p=3062
http://www.relativelyunrelated.com/2009/the-bane-that-is-no-more/1475/
It turns out that Jesus was correct! I have spent the last year talking with atheist and the response is predictable and always the same. They always resort to anger simply when you disagree with them. It is not a few; rather, this is the vast majority (in fact all I have met so far).
Since you are considered one of them, they will treat you nice; however, when you are not one of them..you have to be careful because they become angry and even violent as history has shown us.
God Bless…
January 30th, 2010 at 6:00 am
“I have spent the last year talking with atheist [sic]”
->
“I have spent the last year castigating atheists online because I have preconceptions based on no evidence that they are not good people, and I feel a strange urge to make this opinion known to them. I enjoy talking at atheists, rather than with them, because talking with them would require me to actually engage with their ideas, and that hurts my head.”
Fixed.
January 30th, 2010 at 8:17 am
I didn’t realize how many bad stereotypes about atheists there were in the Christian community, until I came out of the closet, so to speak, to my Christian husband and friends that I was no longer a believer. My husband thought I was turning away from god so I could go wild and have an affair. (He quickly came to his senses, or I would be calling him my ex-husband!) One Christian friend sent me an e-mail with all kinds of crap in it about how there are no morals without god and for atheists anything goes.
I never really bought into those lies when I was a Christian because I know so many people who are not, including my own mother, and I know they are good people.
(BTW, I’m a fellow red-head.)
January 30th, 2010 at 9:44 am
zdenny is so predictable…
: )
January 30th, 2010 at 9:51 am
Zdenny, funny passage you chose. I’ve seen more to refute your argument among fundamentalists who shun, ostracize and openly abuse anyone that doesn’t believe, look or behave just like them. They are the antithesis of Luke 6! There is even a movement to pray for Obama to be overthrown — how is this loving those not like them?
And more refutation: I’m a Christian who openly visits and posts on this site and other atheist AND Christian sites. I’m sure there are atheists out there that roll their eyes at my posts, but I’ve received nothing but openness and acceptance.
Laura, I’ve been in your shoes. “Everyone outside our tightly conscribed circle is miserable and empty. Inside the circle, everything is sweetness and light.” But we’ve all seen discord and unhappiness in the church, haven’t we? The divorce rate is no different inside or out. So when the medicine show banter is clearly not true, then the admonitions to stay in the circle must come out of fear. Fear that you’ll step outside and find that the air is fine. I choose to remain a Christian, but I’m always questioning, always skeptical, always searching.
So my red hair is touched up from a bottle and I’m not an atheist, but rock on, sister!
January 30th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Redheaded Atheists Unite!!
As I am pretty much none of those things, I try to be as outspoken as possible, to crush the stereotype.
At first, I was worried it would hurt my career, as I own a business and I didn’t want to put off potential clients. That only lasted a few seconds, however. All my work comes from referrals, so happily, the work speaks for itself, regardless of what the creator is saying. Plus, I decided I really didn’t WANT to work closely with people who would judge me on more than my ability to do a good job.
January 30th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Actually ZDenny, all of the blogs you listed describe you as dishonest and a liar because you spout claims about people that are not true. You tell them that they are a certain way and that they think a certain way, when they aren’t and don’t. You also fail to show any humbleness when you are corrected. You ignore proof of the errors of your Ideas (Liberalism, Hitler for example) as though facts do not apply to you.
You are most useful to atheists as an example of the extreme ugliness and smugness of “So Called” christians. I have referred wavering christians to your writings here at work with good effect. So as far as my opinion, which is worth nothing to you, either keep up the good work and don’t change a thing or self reflect and ponder the myriad responses you’ve gotten from your comments. Either way works..
And as far as anger at you, speaking for myself at a minimum, I don’t feel anger at you at all, I feel pity just as I would any weak minded person.
The only anger I would feel is if you took money from other weak minded people to promote your superstitions or damaged someone else’s life by religious subjugation, and that is because I care and love my fellow man and I don’t want them to waste a precious minute of our short lives.
January 30th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Laura
As you can see, even the folks who comment on this blog show how they hate folks who disagree with them.
Charon claims that I “enjoy talking at atheists”
Charity says that if her husband disagreed with her, he was going to divorce him. “He quickly came to his senses, or I would be calling him my ex-husband.”
Melee says, “blogs you listed describe you as dishonest and a liar…you also fail to show any humbleness when you are corrected” and then she accuses me of taking money.
All I have ever done is interact with post. I have never called a single person a name of any sort. I only have intellect conversations about ideas. How could a person hate you because of an idea that you have? Atheists do though because when you disagree with them, that creates a negative feeling which forms the justification for saying mean and even cruel things to others.
It just is the way they are…they can’t help it. They don’t know the love of God which goes beyond their feelings. Their feelings in a way become a type of “God” for them which directs how they treat other people. A good feeling may get a smile, a bad feeling will get punished.
I hope you can see the difference.
The fact that you haven’t banned me yet like the rest of those atheists mean you still have some Christianity in you that is holding onto you.
God Bless…
January 30th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Zdenny -
You know damned well that you garnered the reception you have, because you are full of nothing but hate that you try to hide behind a mask of Christ. You do nothing but attempt to dehumanize atheists with hate filled bile.
You were assuredly not banned from my site because you disagree. I have had Christians and others I disagree with write full posts for the front page of my blog. You were banned because you insisted on poking your anti-atheist bigotry on any post you damned well pleased – relevant or not. You repeatedly and blatantly lied as well. You were unable to follow even the basic rules of common courtesy – including actually refraining from commenting after you were told you are not welcome. And of course the one time I commented on your site, politely and without any cursing out of respect for your space, you cowardly refused to let it post, choosing instead to respond with an email. But for a long while I let that hypocrisy slide, in spite of your disrespect for my space.
Playing the martyr and pretending that you didn’t earn the anger is just another example of your blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy.
January 30th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
RE: ZDenny
Quote “and then she accuses me of taking money.”
What my comment said:
“The only anger I would feel is if you took money from other weak minded people to promote your superstitions..”
The words “Would” and “if” have meaning.. look it up. Correct your words. Otherwise this is a LIE.
Do you know what it means to tell a falsehood?
January 30th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Laura,
I hope you can see Dwayne’s comment. He said that I earned the anger I receive. He admits that at the heart of his worldview is a philosophy of anger towards those who disagree with you. He believes that when a person disagrees that they have earned their anger and that an atheist is justified in directing anger and disrepect towards a fellow human being who simply disagrees.
I am only trying to point out the obvious and it flows from the fact that they don’t know the love of God. Dwayne can’t help it and I certainly don’t blame him. He just doesn’t know the love of God in his life and it shows! That is the only point I am trying to make…
Thanks everyone for all the great illustrations…
God Bless..
January 30th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
See !
I told you all ZDenny was never wrong!
Repent everyone! for ZDenny is the new messiah!
January 30th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
He admits that at the heart of his worldview is a philosophy of anger towards those who disagree with you.
And you wonder why people accuse you of lying.
January 30th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Oi, I would note for everyone else that I am not a red-head and I am not sporting a uterus. But despite my sometimes cantankerous outlook and occasional heavy use of impolite language, I am generally decent people.
I am also all about non-male atheists and skeptics – nothing says depressing like a non-theist/freethinking group with 5:1 ratio in favor of men. Not because I am looking for a date mind, I already have the pleasure of a wonderful partner. I am just rather keen on relatively equal representation of the sexes.
January 30th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
And just to show you that the real world is usually dead opposite of ZDenny’s beliefs, I am not female, though he called me a “SHE”.
January 30th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Great post Laura!
Thought provoking as always.
Interesting comment thread too!
January 30th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
I would recommend everyone reading Dwayne’s exchange. He mentioned it so it may be helpful to everyone to show how the debate is stated.
Here is the link
http://debrayton.blogspot.com/2009/07/christian-logic-why-i-don-love-my-boys.html
Dwayne did write a comment; however, I held it in moderation because I thought he was not be truthful. I found out that he in fact is controlled by his feelings and unable to love those who have a different opinion from him. He berates me as a person over and over in his post showing how much anger, rage and resentment he had in his heart towards me. He post both some of my comments and his comments.
I think this is helpful because I want everyone to know that Atheists are controled by their feelings. They need to be controled by the love of God which is beyond their feelings.
My hope and prayer is that everyone will come to know what love really is. You don’t have to be in bondage to your feelings; rather, you can live a life of love and love those “who are least among us”
God Bless…
January 30th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
I would recommend everyone reading Dwayne’s exchange. He mentioned it so it may be helpful to everyone to show how the debate is stated. Atheists have a tendency to call everyone who disagree with them a liar, but this is far from the case.
Here is the link
http://debrayton.blogspot.com/2009/07/christian-logic-why-i-don-love-my-boys.html
Dwayne did write a comment; however, I held it in moderation because I thought he was not be truthful. I discover my actions were more than justified.
I found out that he in fact is controlled by his feelings and unable to love those who have a different opinion from him. He berates me as a person over and over in his post showing how much anger, rage and resentment he had in his heart towards me even though he doesn’t know me. He post some of my comments and his comments.
I think this is helpful because I want everyone to know that Atheists are controled by their feelings. They need to be controled by the love of God. The love of God is not controlled by your feelings going beyond the chemical makeup of the body. I don’t deny that atheist don’t have good feelings which they call love; however, when those feelings go negative, they then feel vindicated in their hate. I hope you can see the difference.
My hope and prayer is that everyone will come to know what love really is. You don’t have to be in bondage to your feelings; rather, you can live a life of love and love those “who are least among us”
God Bless…
January 30th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Yes obviously Zdenny knows love since he derailed this entire blog post so he could throw himself a little pity party about how he isn’t welcome on some blogs. You mean people don’t want to hear zdenny tell them what they believe? Or listen to him proselytize endlessly without acknowledging the holes in his arguments? Shocking I know. You say you know love zdenny then you go off on how full of hate atheists are. You feel nothing but hate yourself zdenny. I hope you and your invisible friend enjoy your pity party because it is pretty boring and annoying to the rest of us when you try so desperately to get attention.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Wow, all righty then. Zdenny, the truth is, I have considered banning you several times. The reason I haven’t has nothing to do with Christian love, but because other people said they wanted to keep you around. These hate filled atheists are the ones keeping you here.
The truth is, and I say this in total love, is that you DO deserve much, if not all, of the anger you incite in people. You write very inflammatory remarks, then talk about all the angry atheists. If I went and said the exact same things you say, replacing your “atheists” with “Christian” on another blog, then the world would seem full of angry Christians to me. You have shown no willingness to dialogue or learn from atheists. It seems to me that all you want to do is reinforce your own very wrong stereotypes. Perhaps I am wrong, in which case feel free to correct me.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
“Everything I Knew About Atheism Was Wrong”
Hallelujah! I have found the truth and it has made me free!
I also thought that atheists have no faith, and that was something scarey for me. I did a thought experiment of, “What would it be like to live without faith?” It was uncomfortable because it seemed like faith is a reality that I was denying. But, to my comfort, my brain came up with an answer (I used to call that intuitive part of my mind “Holy Spirit” btw). I believe we do have faith because our brains are wired for it. We make music and create art and language, etc. because we are wired for it through the evolutionary process. Faith is part of what makes us human.
If I may indulge in a little self-advertisement, Laura, I posted a long version of these thoughts in Cafe Verite (Category: For the Religious…juliet), and I’d love to hear some feedback. I appreciate the many points of view and experiences in this community.
Even yours, ZDenny, because I really, truly, deeply, beyond a shadow of a doubt believed. Now I know why I never really felt comfortable believing that way…even when I did, I still never felt the love of god. There was always a hole of some size in my life. That kind of relationship where trust is betrayed is not conducive to my happiness and ability to make a meaningful difference in the lives of other people. All the “blessings” I received were because people loved me and showed me they did, I was a good steward of my time and talents, or because of simple good luck (the laws of probability, NOT God going incognito).
January 30th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Yeah, I’m kind of crotchety, too. Chronic pai will do that for ya.
Zdenny, as I stated before, I have been married for 41 + years to a practicing christian, we have raised two fine sons, and the first and last things we say to each other every day are the words “I love you”, and we mean it. We’ve known each other since 1963, she was my first date, and she knew right away that I was a non believer.
Starngely, in that time and in our many disagreements over the years, none of these things has ever concerned religion.
Most of the people I deal with know that I am an atheist, yet they approach me for help knowing that it will be there on request, trust me with their kids, and even ask me to play in their churches because they like my music, not because they think I’ll be swayed by any service.
But we take each other for what we are, enjoyable people.
I will go for the joke, though, I’ll give you that I like a good joke…actually, I like BAD jokes.
Around the fire things like religion are discussed, and one of the members was talking about now largely unknown types, like the “Shouting Methodist”. I did, in fact, remind him that he HAD SEEN my wife when I’d gotten her goos and irritated, hadn’t he…?
January 30th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
And ignoring Denny, I will respond to the actual post – taking a moment between sections of the study guide for my next test…
I think meaning was a big one, as was the notion that atheists are angry – and go figure, I now understand the anger. I think the rest were pretty well broken down by the time I became an atheist, because a lot of my friends were atheists. Ultimately, it was a combination of the last two breaking down and my inability to reconcile my faith and reality that finally did it.
The anger was something that I actually realized that I already felt – I just hadn’t made the connection. I was in a rage at the religious right, with their desire to interfere with the personal lives of others and I was also rather angry about religion being a convenient excuse to avoid things that the rest of us do by law and because they are right. One of the biggest being vaccinations.
Ironically, it was a fundamentalist friend (wife of a very old friend) who once was an atheist who put it into perspective for me. She made the point that she still has a lot of the anger she had as an atheist, she just balances it with her god’s love so she isn’t raging all the time. And I was realizing that I didn’t rage all the time and I was in pretty heavy doubt about god’s love.
As far as meaning – I actually was thrown into some stuff I already knew, some of it actually engaging because my then six year old got all excited about it. He was watching Cosmos, which we had picked up from the library and pounced on me excitedly when I got home from work that day. He was absolutely blown away by the idea that we are all made up of – that everything around us is made up of particles that exploded outward billions of years ago.
Later that night, we went looking through his telescope and we talked about how that meant that we were made up of particles that came from the same place that what made what we could barely see also came from. And we broke out the handy atlas of the history of the world and looked at the spiral that expresses the history of earth – showing a line that they mention is actually far bigger than scale, so we can actually see it at the end, that shows the time earth has looked more or less as we see it now, sans saber tooths and mammoths. I then explained that a spiral of the existence of the universe, would show the very existence of our planet earth would cover less than a third of the spiral.
I think that is the point that I realized that naturalistic explanations – explanations that incorporate our best understanding of the existence of everything – are far more amazing than any explanation that includes divine interventions. Meaning? Our reason for existing is just to be what we can and do what we can – preferably to make this planet the best place we possibly can for not only ourselves but those we share it with. I realized that being good to others, caring for others, loving others – this isn’t something to do because some god wants us to.
I realized that doing my best to be a decent person, help others, love others was something I wanted to do because it makes me feel good to do so – because it is the best way to make my time being alive the best that it could possibly be.
And there is ever so much to wonder at – who needs something we cannot see, cannot comprehend and most importantly, there is no evidence supporting the actual existence of? The mere vastness of time and space is enough to make a person weep, trying to comprehend the scope of it all. The idea that we might point a telescope in orbit at sections of blackness, only to witness more in those glimpses, than we can see with a personal ocular telescope.
All that awe inspiring wonder surrounding our planet and even that is still full of exciting surprises and large swaths left to explore.
After that, it was really hard to maintain faith in something that by definition is unknowable, incomprehensible and above all simplistic…
January 30th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Laura,
Hey, I appreciate the comment; however, I would simply disagree. I believe that we should love everyone including those who have a different opinion. I don’t believe that a person’s belief should divide humanity. I believe everyone should be treated with respect regardless of what they believe because all of us have a spark of the divine within. I know that Atheists will never agree with me on this; however, they just don’t know the love of God so I completely and totally understand why I am treated the way I am.
God Bless..
January 30th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Step 1. Tell someone that they believe something they don’t, especially if this makes them out to be a horrible person while making you look like a saint.
Step 2. Listen patiently as they explain, sometimes with justifiable anger, why they are not the type of person you have made them out to be.
Step 3. Gloat about how much of a martyr this makes you.
January 30th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
**They’re full of anger toward God.**
I can understand where this comes from, in terms of the Christian pov. When I get in discussions with some Christians, and I disagree with what they’ve stated, they tell me I’m disagreeing with God. So if I’m angry with their behavior, I’m actually angry with God. Pick any emotion, and it gets assigned — in their pov — to God, because the emotion is directed at the Christian.
January 30th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
zdenny said, “Charity says that if her husband disagreed with her, [s]he was going to divorce him.”
It wasn’t a mere disagreement. As I said, “My husband thought I was turning away from god so I could go wild and have an affair.” That is not disagreement, that is mistrust and unfounded accusation.
Trust is the foundation of a good relationship. Why would I want to stay married to someone who had such a low and negative opinion of me? Answer: I wouldn’t.
I am still married to a believer, so there goes your theory about atheists being unable to get along with people who don’t agree with them. We get along just fine.
Another thing, zdenny, you said in your first comment, “They always resort to anger simply when you disagree with them. It is not a few; rather, this is the vast majority (in fact all I have met so far).”
I blogged for 3 and 1/2 years as a very conservative, Bible-believing Christian and I interacted with many atheists on my blog. All of them were very nice to me, even though we disagreed a lot on a variety of issues.
The difference between my experience and yours is the way we treat them. I was always respectful to them as people and that is what I got in return.
January 31st, 2010 at 6:09 am
Charity,
You said, “Why would I want to stay married to someone who had such a low and negative opinion of me? Answer: I wouldn’t.”
This is exactly my point Charity. If your husband does not comport with your expectations, he knows he’s gone. I know you don’t realize this but most people go through periods of change, depression, disappointment, mid-life crisis, etc… and change. In some cases, they fall into drugs, alcohol etc… due to life circumstances…
Your basic attitude is that if your husband doesn’t meet your expectations of what a husband should be, then they are gone.
In other words, husband, you can’t be yourself. You will have to constantly be pleasing me or you are out of here. In other words, if he does not feed your atheistic bubble, he gone.
I hope you can see that you cannot possibly love your husband or any man for that reason. Your husband is the one who loves you and is serving you while denying himself the right to be himself. He will never tell you this because you might throw him out, but this is what is taking place in your relationship.
I know the truth can hurt, but that is what atheists have a problem with…Truth. Truth is what leads them to hate me. I always treat everyone with respect; however, I do speak the truth with as much love as I can provide. If you knew the love of God, you would find that your husband may actually start enjoying life because he would know that you love him no matter what; however, Atheists can’t love no matter what which is my point because they don’t know the love of God.
God Bless…
January 31st, 2010 at 6:23 am
geez, I thought David Koresh perished in Waco??
January 31st, 2010 at 7:47 am
zdenny is STILL predictable…
: )
January 31st, 2010 at 11:05 am
Zdenny, I’m sorry but you have it backwards. A believer has no concept of “love”. They spend all their time worshiping a deity that hates them. Their holy books clearly show that their deities invented a world made for human suffering.
Believers do not have the ability to respect or care for their family. Their allegiances lie with God, and God alone. It is impossible for someone to claim they have “love” for anyone when they put such a disgusting creature of their imaginations before people who really matter!
I know the truth can hurt, but that is what believers have a problem with…Truth. You reject truth so that you can hate everyone else. You never treat anyone with respect; however, you still put on a facade that you “care” about people to cover up the disgusting vile of your beliefs. If you knew how little you knew of “love”, you would reject your beliefs and start understanding what it means to be human. However, Believers can’t love no matter what, which is my point because they reject love for “God”.
January 31st, 2010 at 11:21 am
Zdenny,
I have to respect your fortitude, but is it possible that you are casting seed on frozen ground. Most of these folks have nothing but contempt for you, and for people of faith in general. (Consider this last post from anon.)
They are pretty much not able to find anything positive to see in the church, and have found their identity together in “unbelief,” mocking, and disrespecting those of their former faith.
Sometimes we have to withdraw, and allow people to walk out the path of their own choosing, and to experience the consequence of that, both good, and bad, through their lives.
Just commend them, and all of us to God.
Sadly,
Grace.
January 31st, 2010 at 11:29 am
zdenny,
You are not respectful to people. You twist people’s words and make sweeping, and insulting, statements about them. THAT is why people do not like you; not because atheists are angry.
I am inclined to think you are some sort of prankster who made up this persona of yours in order to have a little fun on the internet. No one could really think such statements convey love or respect of any kind.
You know nothing about me and nothing about my relationship of 11 years. You know nothing about my husband or what we have been through. You know nothing at all about my feelings for him. Yet, you state boldly as “truth” that I do not love him and that he can’t be himself around me, and that should not be taken as disrespect?
You also state that “atheists can’t love no matter what.”
You call that respectful?
You must be kidding. No one can be that obtuse.
January 31st, 2010 at 11:47 am
Good point ANON. Just think, because ZDenny is so zealous with the God voices in his head that he could be called to slice his son’s throat like abraham, or sacrifice his daughter, like jacob, provided he has any kids yet.
I’m sure that the sacrifice would have been enjoyable for the kids though, as they depend on their parents to love and protect them.
and hey, ZDenny’s neighbors had better watch out too.
8:24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword. 8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai. 8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
Love love love, I’d bet the spears that they skewered the babies with were heart shaped. And all the inhabitants of Ai thanked the godly soldiers who slew them, for they of course understood that it was under the direction of THE TRUE GOD ™.
Yes this is the love that Zdenny wants to share with us, because our atheist love that would never do such things is not good enough.
January 31st, 2010 at 12:03 pm
So was there ever a poll about whether Zdenny is a poe? I’m leaning that way, myself. Personally I love zdenny. There is no possible way atheists could convince people how unappealing fundamentalism is without exhibit A.
January 31st, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Epe,
Sadly I don’t think he is a parody. A search on ZDenny in google has both a website and a couple of you-tube videos that appear to be from the same person.
here’s what another blog has said about ZD:
http://religionlulz.blogspot.com/2010/01/its-zdenny-check-it-out.html
I think he could make money going on the talk circuit, speaking at atheist meetings. He’d certainly bump up the membership!
January 31st, 2010 at 3:21 pm
I’m so sick of zdenny. He obviously thrives on attention that feeds into his biased mind, if he’s not a poe.
I’m done feeding this troll.
January 31st, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Charity,
I simply read what you are writting…
You stated, “You are not respectful to people. You twist people’s words and make sweeping, and insulting, statements about them. THAT is why people do not like you; not because atheists are angry.”
ZD: I simply repeated what you said. You said you would throw your husband out if he does not comport with your expectations. You said it… Are you angry about what you said now? You can’t be angry at me for something you said.
You then said, “You know nothing about me and nothing about my relationship of 11 years. You know nothing about my husband or what we have been through. You know nothing at all about my feelings for him. Yet, you state boldly as “truth” that I do not love him and that he can’t be himself around me, and that should not be taken as disrespect?”
Yes, I do because you just told me that if your husband does not feed your atheistic bubble the right way, you would kick him out. I understood the bottom line as would anyone. I think every husband would understand what you said very clearly. If my wife told me that, I would know that she was determine to make sure that I was kept insecure in our relationship so that she could control me. That is not love.
You then stated, “You also state that “atheists can’t love no matter what.”
You call that respectful?”
My argument is that atheists are in bondage to their feelings. If they have a good feeling, they call that love. If they have a negative feeling, watch out! I was speaking about atheism in general. I was not talking about you personally since I don’t know you that well. I don’t do personal attacks.
However, my experience with atheist is that they all fall into this description. I am still looking for an exception. In order to escape being in bondage to your emotions which generally are chemically produced, you have to know the love of God. The love of God allows you to love someone no matter how you feel. Feelings are important and work great when you know the love of God. Without the love of God, you end up in anger alot…and I mean alot.
God Bless…
January 31st, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Honestly Denny, how do you walk into church with a straight face – look at your children without shame – kiss your wife or even pray?
You should seriously consider therapy for that hatred and lying.
January 31st, 2010 at 11:09 pm
ZDenny, I am curious. I said earlier that I truly believed the things that I had been taught about God and Christ. At the moment I decided to repent, asked Christ into my heart and accepted the gift of the cross, I believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was saved.
But, believing in God, doing and loving in God’s name didn’t seem to make a difference. More and more I felt absolutely unloved and ignored by God. Was I relying too much on a feeling?
So, I looked for action as proof that God loved me. How was God acting in my life and in the lives of others?
Well, what I discovered was that blessings I had were given directly to me from the people around me. The achievements I had and the failures I had could often be traced to me and my actions (mostly with or without the help of other people) or to the laws of probability.
So, I ask you, without neurochemistry or enough direct observations, how does one know that he/she has the love of God?
What’s the proof of God’s love? What if I don’t trust “the proof” because it has no integrity (doing what it promised to do) or can easily be attributed to other causes?
“Love thy neighbor as thyself.” Do you love me? I am your cyber-neighbor. Who defines how I’m supposed to know that you or any other “Love of God Knowing” Christian loves me?
Also, as I am sure you want to be heard and present other opinions without feeling attacked, please consider that your comments do often come off as either a martyr or a child running to the nearest adult to whine about being mistreated.
“Aw man, you got me monologuing.”
February 1st, 2010 at 4:53 am
Julie,
My experience was very different than yours because I came to know the love of God first which then caused me to love others.
When you become a Christian, God takes you on a spiritual journey so that you can come to know His love. Your bubble of selfishness has to pop and you have to come to know how to rely on His love in order to love the world. This is not easy because you have to die to yourself and your desires (this is the hardest thing in the world to do because we are by nature very selfish).
Atheism teaches just the opposite namely that life is all about you and your desires. A person that transitions from Christianity to atheism by definition never completed the cycle that results in knowing the love of God. Once the love of God is known, you can never turn away because no one will reject love when it is known.
When you die to yourself, you will discover that you will be resurrected by the love of God which then empowers you to love others. You no longer worry about what people say or do to you. You know that you are to love without compunction.
The Bible even gives a parable about a seed that is planted in Matt 13. Seeds can be on bad ground, get choked, die due to the heat; however, the plant that reaches maturity produces fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy and peace.
If you look at the life of Moses, Daniel, David, Job, Jonah…in every case these men had a horrible life for a long period of time. Why? God was showing them how to die to themselves. Once this is done, you can be resurrected to new life knowing the love of God for yourself.
I personally have never relied on the love of others. I have enough life experience to know that people will fail you no matter who they are. I have discovered that God loves never fails though and His love compels me. I cannot imagine a life more wonderful than the one I have now. Life does not consist in who your friends are or want you have. Life is about knowing the love of God who then provides for all your needs. I have went through the hard times but now that I am on the other side…I know exactly why I had to go through it.
As the Bible says, “For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
I know the love of God in the same way that I know you have a mind. I can’t see your mind and I can’t see love; however, you come to know the love of God by faith which is the exact same mechanism I use to know that you have a mind. In fact, we come to know physical reality by placing faith in our senses. You come to know the love of God by placing faith in Jesus Christ.
As the Bible says, “Seek me and you will find me when you seek me with all of your heart.”
God Bless…
February 1st, 2010 at 8:30 am
zdenny,
“Are you angry about what you said now? You can’t be angry at me for something you said.”
I am not angry in the least, at anyone. But that’s not what I said, either.
You have either misunderstood what I said or are intentionally misrepresenting it to try and provoke anger. I don’t expect my husband to embrace my atheism (he doesn’t), but I will not be accused of doing things I am not doing just because I am an atheist. I consider that (talking down, accusing, mistrusting without reason) to be verbally abusive, if it is an ongoing thing.
I expect to be respected regardless of my religious views. You turned that into, I want him to be and do everything I say or I will throw him out. I didn’t say that, nor do I think that.
As I said, I am not angry. I was just trying to point out to you the way in which you are disrespectful to people. I had a very positive experience with atheists on my old blog when I was a Christian. I would have missed out on a lot of good discussions and positive interactions if I went into them treating people the way you do.
If you really want to have discussions with people and be taken seriously, you should try to understand what people are saying. If they do not have the same views as you, chances are they don’t mean what you think they mean. It takes effort to communicate effectively with people.
I realize that either you are parodying a Christian or you are unwilling to understand what people are saying. Either way, I am finished with this discussion. Best to you.
February 1st, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Charity,
Perhaps I am not following you as you stated. However, it seems like you keep on saying the same thing. In the last sentence you stated, “I expect to be respected regardless of my religious views” I guess if you are not respected then you are going to kick him out?
Your criteria for kicking someone out either keeps changing; however, the bottom line is that you will kick him out for “something” if you feel that he does “something” you don’t like.
In other words, you will not love him for better or worst. If things got worst, you basically will kick him out depending on how you define ‘worst” I think I am pretty safe in assuming that much at least.
The bottom line is that your love is only a feeling. If you got a good feeling you call it love and if it goes negative (the worst), you are out of there.
The bottom line is that your ‘idea’ of love is based on your feelings. This is my point that all atheists are in bondage to their feelings as they don’t know the love of God. They don’t know the love that never fails.
I am glad you currently have feelings for your husband as this is important for every woman; however, understand that people change. Your man may go through a life change that you don’t like. When that happens will you still love him? I don’t know if you would because your love is conditioned.
Thanks for the discussion and I am terribly sorry if I misunderstood you, but you seem to just keep repeating the same thing.
God Bless…
February 1st, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I’m just leaving this comment to say two things. First to say that I’m new to this blog but I’m liking the posts I’ve read so far and second to say that I’m very happy to see an active atheist blogger living in the same area as me.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:32 pm
ZDenny, Thank you for your reply directly to me, but please take a moment to review your posts for correct spelling and grammar next time before you submit your comment. Poor grammar and spelling has a tendancy to diminish my assessment of one’s intellect.
I’m sorry, but I find your response to be circumventing, confusing and unsatisfactory. I am also sorry that you, like Moses, David and Jonah (punished by God for the human emotions of anger, lust, and fear), and Daniel and Job (downright allowed by God to abused when he could have shown his morality and supernatural power by preventing the abuse), seem to be caught up in the Stockholm Syndrome.
Good bye, ZDenny. Blessings of life and companionship to you and your family.
For the Christians in Laura’s blog-community, would you share your thoughts on this question: If natural, God-given, human emotions are to be rejected as a proof for God’s love, as ZD implies, how does one know he/she has the love of God?
Also, is knowing the love of God the same as being loved by God?
Going to go feed my happiness now…it’s the turbo boost for my natural tendancy to be a comforting person. You know, being a person who brings comfort is very important as a hospice worker.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Hm. Got an email about a follow-up comment that I really wanted to reply to (not by those to whom I have no interest in speaking), but it seems to have disappeared.
Suffice to say that it’s a very tiring argument that all atheists hold God in contempt or religion in contempt or religious people in contempt.
As an atheist, I don’t believe in God. I cannot understand why this needs to be repeated so many times. I hold Yahweh in as much contempt as I hold Zeus or Sauron or Voldemort or Bambi. I consider him a fictional character. I know that you, as a Christian, consider him to be very real, but please do not apply your belief system to my thoughts or you will just end up with a twisted view of what I am trying to say.
As far as holding religion in contempt, I can’t say that I do. I’m not fond of it, by any means, but I understand its attraction and comfort for some people.
As far as holding religious people in contempt, I will admit that there are some that I do. But not because they are religious, but rather because they act in despicable ways and hide behind the cowardly shield of religion. Those same people I would not like any better as atheists.
So please, can we stop with the “You’re a bitter atheist who hates God” argument? I know it can seem almost unfathomable to someone who sincerely believes in God, but take a moment to think that I accept the fact that you DO believe in him and try to debate from that point, so please please try to accept that fact that I DON’T believe in him and try to put my comments/actions in that context. Otherwise there is little meaningful debate to be had.
For the Christians, how would you like it if every atheist told you “Well, I know you don’t really believe in God, you’re just pretending because you’re scared of the alternative!” I’m guessing you wouldn’t like it. And it would be unfair of me, because while that is certainly true of some Christians, it is not true of all, and it would not allow me to understand what they were actually trying to say to me.
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:48 am
Grace Says:
January 31st, 2010 at 11:21 am
Zdenny,
“.. Most of these folks have nothing but contempt for you, and for people of faith in general.”
Absolutely not true. We have contempt at be treated rudely and inconsiderately, as ZDenny invariable behaves, but If any Xtian is polite and respectful, they will be treated in kind.
“They are pretty much not able to find anything positive to see in the church, and have found their identity together in “unbelief,” mocking, and disrespecting those of their former faith.”
We don’t have an Identity together, if belief in god were say stamp collecting, then you wouldn’t say that people who don’t collect stamps have an identity. Any mocking or disrespecting is simply replying in kind. When ZDenny claims that our problems are caused by our heathenistic mother and father, and that our relations with our spouse is defective and we don’t love one another because we’re incapable of compassion and understanding without his god, then he is being disrespectful and mocking.
“Sometimes we have to withdraw, and allow people to walk out the path of their own choosing, and to experience the consequence of that, both good, and bad, through their lives.
..
Sadly,
Grace.”
Mighty considerate of you to “allow” us to run our own lives for now. I appreciate that. (Yeah that’s mocking, not your god, but your assumptions.)
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:42 am
Heh – I totally missed Grace…
Most of these folks have nothing but contempt for you, and for people of faith in general.
Interesting that you would make an assumption about people you know virtually nothing about.
For the record, I have far more than contempt for ZDenny – I feel very sorry for him and more especially his family. Contrary to the assumptions that he makes, I walk in love to my fellow humans and it sorrows me to see such hatred and ignorance.
As for people of faith in general, I have contempt for some, though the same that applies to Denny, applies to them. Mostly, I feel no differently about religious people than I do about other atheists. I have respect for people who deserve my respect, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I have contempt for people who deserve contempt, again, regardless of their religion or lack thereof.
I do not respect religious belief, but that is far from the same as not respecting people who happen to have such. I respect a great many people who have fundamental disagreements with me – sometimes about issues that are extremely important to me. I do not respect the position they hold on the issue we disagree with, but again – that is not the same.
What I have very little tolerance for, are people who dehumanize others. Bigotry is a nasty business and while there are certainly types of bigotry that effect all of us, that are a part of all of us, overt bigotry is bloody damned well inexcusable and intolerable.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:49 am
I’m a very happy, red-headed atheist female. I think there’s probably scads of us out there
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Anyone wanna bet that “Grace” is a zdenny sockpuppet? The style and content are pretty similar.
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:18 pm
That occurred to me too, Eamon.
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:34 am
I’ve been accused of having red hair, but I swear it’s mostly blonde (not by birth, mind you).
I’m not sure I ever had any negative thoughts about atheists, except that during my trying-to-find-blind-faith years they did make me nervous, as I had been to the scary left behind movies and … well, lots of stuff made me nervous in those days, I may or may not have basic nervous tendencies about everything
But I must admit I was basically blown away by how awesome the atheist community is – and how brilliant and well-educated. So now, the only way atheists make me nervous is that I feel like I’m not as well-informed as I should be, but I am having a lot of fun learning.
Also — what DeWayne said. Yes, exactly.
February 3rd, 2010 at 5:49 pm
This particular atheist gets angry when confronted with teh stupid….or the incredibly annoying.
But, this is why my own personal god, some guy from Johnson’s and Johnsons, invented duct tape….so I can tape my mouth shut and my fingers to the table when need be.
*sigh*
.
May 21st, 2010 at 9:27 pm
[...] The Redheaded Skeptic writes: [...]
July 12th, 2010 at 8:50 am
I’m sorry that I am so late in this conversation, but I find it sad the people have these stereotypes in the first place. Is it truly that hard to believe that atheists have morals and value life just as much as anyone else? I obviously cannot speak for all atheists out there, but calling all atheists selfish is a terrible misconception. I don’t assume Christians feel incomplete for not believing in several gods or not worshiping Zeus. Therefore, I don’t feel any less complete in not having a god to answer to. And “funny because they are insecure”? Does a lack of god make anyone less secure about their purpose in life? It seems like some people on here are not open to the possibility of “atheist and happy”. It’s only too bad that these stereotypes persist when there is so much to learn from people different than yourself.