Duggars: Niceness Not Included
Saturday, December 12th, 2009
This baby is NOT Josie Duggar. I put it here for a comparison: this baby weighs 1 lb, 15 oz. Josie weighed 1 lb, 6 oz at birth.
So, I got a couple of emails asking me what I thought of the Duggar situation. My thoughts, I am afraid, are not very politically correct, hence why I haven’t posted. But you asked (and I don’t usually care about voicing what I really think, nice or not anyways), so I decided to just copy and paste my opinion directly from another message board. Important note: if you only want warm fuzzies sent the Duggar way, stop reading now! With that warning, here are my unscripted, unedited, niceness not included thoughts:
I have a hard time with this. On the one hand, I understand the fundamentalist, trust in God for everything mindset. On the other hand, I agree with commenters around the Internets that they rolled the dice so many times, of course something was going to go wrong. They discussed “what if Downs syndrome/other special needs” at one point, and I remember thinking that they sounded so sure, somehow. That they were so committed to trusting God that they didn’t think it would really happen, and therefore didn’t take it seriously. That was the tone they used anyways, even though they used the “right” words. And I agree it’s selfish to put doctrine over other children that need mom and dad. Fayetteville is more than 3 hours from Little Rock. Their youngest are just babies who won’t understand why mom and dad are gone. Of course it’s not their fault directly, but Michelle has so many risk factors at this point and they knew it. It’s not like it was an accident. And it may have been fine for them to have a special needs kid, but what about to that kid who has to deal with disabilities and to the other kids who will have to suffer getting even LESS of mom and dad’s time? Of course, again, it’s not their fault, but they also knew that this was a risk. All of this, to me, makes it difficult.
So what’s the solution? Do you excuse their reckless behavior because of their beliefs? It seems as though most people are doing this: afraid to say, “WE TOLD YOU SO!” because it seems so tacky. But TLC romanticizes this sort of lifestyle, and I think people need to call it what it really is: reckless, dangerous, and stupid while simultaneously hoping everything turns out all right. Of course, what is “all right” really? Alive? Undamaged? It’s hard to say, and totally depends on our own values.
Of course, I hope Josie gets better. I would never wish them harm. But at the same time, I couldn’t feel the least bit sorry for them if they don’t take this as a warning. Logically, if that first miscarriage was some sort of twisted punishment from God, it only logically follows that this should be some sort of warning. But I know that for whatever reason, the first miscarriage was a warning to stop using that evil birth control out of selfishness, but somehow, this is going to be written off as “just his will.” And that hypocrisy is what utterly disgusts me. I will even admit it makes me ANGRY. Yes, they are going through a rough time and it’s not nice to feel angry, but I do. If they seriously injured a child after racing through a residential neighborhood going 100 mph trusting God to guide their car, people wouldn’t be so nice to them. We wouldn’t feel sorry for them. We would be quite happy to voice our opinions at their carelessness. But really, is what they did any less reckless?
To add to it, there are many things they don’t “trust God for.” They take man-made pharmaceuticals. We know that from the number of c-sections and the fact that Josie and Michelle are still alive. When I was a fundamentalist, we explained doctors and medications as one of the ways God intervened. But can’t God intervene through birth control, too? I mean, if you’re really worried about chemical birth control, there are many other options. And if God is so powerful and he REALLY wants you to have 19 kids, a total hysterectomy couldn’t stop him, could it? So if he wants you to have a kid, some sperm are going to get right through that condom! Birth control fails. How is it that Christians think they are so powerful that something they do is going to stop the will of their omnipotent God? It just seems so selectively trusting to me. They’ll trust God for the number of kids, but trust modern medicine to fix the havoc they wreaked on Michelle’s body.
So tell me what you really think, niceness included only if it’s what you really think. Of course nobody wants Josie to be sick or die–hardly anyone is that horrible. They’re on television and if they wanted privacy and respect, becoming television personalities is hardly the way to do it. So it’s okay to say what you really think here. Don’t worry about all the tiptoeing (again, unless that’s what you really think and you want to tell me I’m a horrible person!), just let me know your real, honest thoughts, whether they agree with mine or not!
ETA: Food for thought:
We do not respect people’s beliefs; we evaluate their reasons. If my reasons are good enough, you will helplessly believe what I believe. That is what it is to be a rational human being. Reasons are contagious. —Sam Harris
I think that is the difference between the “be nice” people and the “why be nice” people. The nice people respect their beliefs. The “why be nice” people point out their flawed reasons.
Also note that this is not my first comment on the Duggars and this pregnancy. I’ve said similar things before, but without the details.
Another Edit: If you want to disagree with me, that’s perfectly fine. Please do! But please read the comments before arguing! There are several things that keep popping up that I have already addressed several times. Also, please read more of my blog before you make any assumptions about me personally. Thank you! 
Tags: Duggars, Josie Duggar, Quiverfull
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December 12th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
I think they’re magical-thinking idiots and in no way prepared for a special-needs child. I wish the TV show, since it exists, would show the negatives – i am really waiting for the shows of how hard the older girls are going to be working with the parents gone, or one parent alone in the NICU, or whatever difficult choice they’re going to have to make now.
And I hope the state posts how much this birth is going to cost the state insurance pool, since apparently they’re on state insurance.
They’re free to do whatever they want, and I hope everyone ends up healthy – but their media presence as a “ministry” is full of glossed-over half-truths and I want some of the difficult truths to come out.
Also? I want them to have to pay taxes instead of hiding behind the tax dodge of being a “church”.
December 12th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
“When I was a fundamentalist, we explained doctors and medications one of the ways God intervened.”
As a nurse, I can tell you that nothing makes a medical team angrier than a patient and their next of kin giving God for all of our hard work.
God doesn’t keep you alive when you’re in a coma, he doesn’t bathe you, clean up your shit and empty your catheter. He doesn’t give you life-saving medicines that were developed by human beings using scientific methods. He doesn’t feed you and comfort you. He doesn’t talk to your family. He doesn’t react when you crash and resuscitate you with CPR and defibrilation. He isn’t the one hugging your family members and offering them comfort when you pass on.
God does none of those things. Humans do them, doctors and nurses. Remember that and look at the nurses next time you hear somebody in a hospital thanking God that they’re okay.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I’ve never seen the show. I don’t know very much about the Duggars. I hope that little Josie pulls through and thrives.
I hope that the Duggars are struck with sterility. Immediately.
I don’t know how the Duggars support their family, but I’m offended by people who “step out in faith” that end up being rescued by the rest of us who worked hard, lived as sensibly as we could and didn’t take the big risks. We build up the resources and they squander them for us. I see this principle at work around me all the time.
I’ts always been interesting to me that the people I have known who grew up as one of many siblings do not have large families of their own.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
The Duggars make their own money and support their children with their own money. And they are not tax exempt because they are a church, they are tax exempt because of their large family. Everyone with a large # of children ( I think it’s 5 or more) are tax exempt. I agree that rolling the dice that many times you are bound to have problems at some point, but they make their own money and pay their own way so I think they are entitled to have as many kids as they want.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
**nd if God is so powerful and he REALLY wants you to have 19 kids, a total hysterectomy couldn’t stop him, could it? So if he wants you to have a kid, some sperm are going to get right through that condom!**
Well, why would God be limited by sex in the first place? If He really wants you to have 19 kids, and He has supernatural powers, why does He need the sperm and egg contribution to only come from sex? Why not just supernaturally merge them somehow?
December 13th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Yes, politeness/making-nice is out of the question. Religious thinking is harmful and beliefs cloud rationality to the point of causing serious problems…always have and always will.
Redheaded Skeptic, you are right on target. It’s a tough message in the context of all the emotions and faith bullshit.
Custador is right on target: humans do the hard work, scientifically and directly in the hospitals…no divine intervention present. It’s so insulting to the doctors, nurses and other health personnel to hear loved ones giving thanks to a non-present myth/ghost and minimal acknowledgement of the heroic work that is done daily.
It’s still a tough sale because so many ‘believers’ are still so addicted and blinded by the god-meme.
As one who disagrees with faith-responses to life’s challenges, I’m grateful for this blog and for the increased opportunities to express ourselves
December 13th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Life is always a gift. That is the difference between Christians and Atheists. Christians see all human life as a gift from God. The quality of life can be affected by sin. Atheists on the other hand don’t see life as a gift. They only believe that a comfortable life is a gift.
I think the thinking is pretty clear. Christians have hope in the resurrection of the dead which means the quality of life is really a non-issue compared with eternity.
Atheists on the other hand only have this life so if the quality of life is not there then abortion or at least birth control (to keep from having too many kids) makes sense because only your life is important as an Atheist.
My wife and I hope to have at least four children. While some see children as a curse, I believe that my kids are a gift. If your daughter had something wrong with her, would you have less feelings for her? If you did, would you wish you would have aborted her?
Atheists always have to deal with this question. Would I kill my own son or daughter because of the quality of life? First, quality would be bad for them and Second, quality would be bad for you if your kid was disabled or perhaps something worst.
I believe a lot of Atheists wish we had a place where we could dump kids who don’t measure up. The reason for this is because they don’t believe in eternal life or that the quality of life may improve meaning they have a firm belief in hopelessness. It simply shows how heartless they can be. The godless support abortion and population controls because of quality of life issues which simply shows how selfish they really are.
Christians have to protect kids from the godless who simply would prefer to dump kids rather than cherish all life. If we are not made in the image of God, it makes sense to dump matter that does not fulfill our expectation. However, if we are made in the image of God, then eternity always outweighs quality of life issues because we know it can only get better no matter how bad it is.
December 13th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I don’t have anything against special needs children whatsoever. I work with them through Make a Wish, so I see firsthand how sweet those kids can be. (I also see the other side, though: how exhausting and emotional draining it can be, with no idealistic “Everything will be all right if you just trust God!” attached.) No, I would not have aborted my daughter if she’d had something wrong with her–I was still a pro-life Baptist minister’s wife when I was pregnant!
Any parent with a special needs child will tell you that it’s rewarding, but completely exhausting, physically and mentally. Can you imagine doing that on top of so many other small children at home? I certainly cannot.
This isn’t about dumping children AT ALL. Just to make that clear. It’s about responsibility: not having more children than you can reasonably support: financially (which they do), emotionally, physically, mentally, and if you are religious, spiritually. It’s about theology: trusting God with birth control, but modern medicine when the going gets rough. It’s about hypocrisy: the miscarriage being a sign from God to reproduce like crazy, but a micropreemie being “God’s will” (I don’t know if that is how it is being interpreted, but it is how it would be in general fundamentalist circles). It’s about a wake up call: having so many risk factors and continuing to get pregnant is dangerous for both mother and child. Josie will probably survive, but she has a LONG way to go and she’s not out of the woods yet. Can they afford more than one hospital bill?
If you watch the Duggars, you see another Quiverfull couple on there, similar in age: the Bates. Mrs. Bates had a late term miscarriage, Mrs. Duggar just had a micropreemie. Then there was the Carrie incident that occurred in blog world where a QF woman lost her baby after ignoring warning signs and people begging her to see a doctor: she trusted God instead of her instincts. Vyckie at No Longer Quivering had babies even though doctors told her not to. WAKE UP, Quiverfull! Having so many children and continuing to have children so late in life is a recipe for disaster, warm fuzzy God not included. This lifestyle is not pro-life. It’s pro-idealism.
December 13th, 2009 at 7:58 am
PS Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean that everyone who comments their agreement is as well! Christian pro-choice proponents do exist. I was one of them for awhile! I also had at one point an atheist commenter who was pro-life.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Hey, thanks for your comment. I thought one thing was interesting. You said, “I would not have aborted my daughter if she’d had something wrong with her”
How about if you had 10 kids already and you accidently got pregnant again. Would you kill the 11th child because life for you would be too hard?
I am just curious…
December 13th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Probably not, but it would honestly just depend. For me, abortion isn’t a thing of convenience or life difficulty. It would be knowing I couldn’t feed it or support it for one reason or another. Special needs would depend on the special needs. If they could have a quality life, I wouldn’t. But there are children who are in agonizing pain every day. If it would be like that, I would.
There is only one time in my life that I would have considered an abortion had I gotten pregnant. And that was during the time immediately following my separation from Bob when I wouldn’t have been able to handle the emotional trauma of a pregnancy on top of everything else. That and there was a short period of time I wouldn’t have known who the father was.
I read a book written by an abortion doctor. She talked about how everyone thinks women who come in for abortions do so lightly or as a means of backup birth control. She said that was never once the case. Real life is a lot stickier than every baby is a wanted baby ideals. But even if I got pregnant now, I wouldn’t abort it. But let me ask you this: what do you think of government programs that help pay for prenatal and postnatal care for pregnant women? It has been my experience that many pro-lifers are also anti-Medicaid for poor people. I never understood what they thought pregnant women were supposed to do. Their idea is to punish the woman 100% for a 50/50 problem. I find that appalling.
December 13th, 2009 at 8:34 am
I don’t know much about this particular family other than they have more kids than I plan to myself. I don’t advocate running out and buying their their house and stuff for them because they should be responsible for paying their family’s way baring some sort of crisis event (which I can understand, be it divorce, serious harm to and/or death of the breadwinner, and so on).
If they can do that then I’ll leave the number of kids they have alone. It is fair to question if they have to many kids to spend time appropriately with but, in the same token, you have to deal with families where both parents are professionals and nannies raise the children.
I don’t know much about the story of this specific family you are criticizing some I’m wondering what the issue is. If it is poor parenting ok, if they did something “faith-based” that hurt one of their children or avoided medical they should have gotten that is a huge issue that people have died from and I can support anger then as well. But I just don’t know what you’re angry about, in specific, now.
Sorry for the confusion and clarify please.
Aurelio, you can be angry about something that actually happened and have justifiable anger or you can be an ass who likes to gripe even when it is totally uncalled for. Many of the hospitals in my hometown have some sort of religious affiliation. My mother has been treated for cancer twice and each time it was done with modern (for the time-referring to the first one which was decades ago) medicine. At least a couple of the hospitals she was treated at had a religious affiliation. I can be thankful to both the medical staff who did a good job and the religious organization that decided (perhaps for ideological/religious reasons) it was worthwhile to build and maintain the hospitals.
If you want be mad about the bad stuff (and some of it is really scary level bad) religions & religious groups do go for it, thats fair. But if you want to ignore anything worthwhile they have done in the real world that isn’t being rational and that is putting it lightly…. and maybe politely.
EDIT: Sorry Laura, I just went a few comments more and found you talking about the time needed to take of children as well as special needs children I think I understand what you’re angry about now.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
very informative thank you
December 14th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Laura said,
Since my oldest child, now 19, has Down Syndrome, I can say with authority that you are absolutely right. Having a child with down syndrome is wonderful in many unexpected ways and I would never change a thing about him if I could. That being said, It is often really hard and very frustrating.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:28 am
My grandfather was always a hero of mine – especially because he didn’t take any nonsense from the god-botherers. He was the only doctor in a substantial rural (and poor) Catholic area.
Quite often he’d have to deal with women suffering from exhaustion. They would come in with their enormous broods with a fresh one clamped securely on and tell him the problems of their lives – cooking, cleaning, sex, babies etc etc.
He used to prescribe them a special “tonic” pill that was a recent invention. After a couple of months they would come back to thank him – the pill had given them a new lease of life.
He should have been struck off for that.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
WHERE does this ridiculous thought come from that atheists/feminists/non-Christians hate children? It sounds like a simple-minded scare-tactic to get the fundies to have more children. In the end, any movement that stimulates/forces their proponents to have as many children as possible has a (hidden?) agenda of power. of ‘taking over’ of outbreeding. Bah.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I just want to point out that preeclampsia occurs most often in first pregnancies. I have one baby and had preeclampsia. It has nothing to do with how many children you have.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
of course, you are right, though Michelle is also a pretty unique case in both her age, the number of children she has had, and how quickly she has had them. Jordyn is still just a baby, too, and having children close together is also a risk factor for problems, on top of the age and 18 other children.This was my problem, where many, many people expressed concern, and their continuing to have children anyways.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
It’s my understanding that Michelle Duggar’s preeclampsia was related to her having gallstones, and that having many pregnancies is a risk factor for gallstones. (I was trying to find where I’d read that, or find some studies backing it up, but I haven’t succeeded. So don’t take it as, um, gospel.)
December 15th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Didn’t Mrs. Duggar have pre-eclampsia with a previous pregnancy, though? Pre-e is most common in first pregnancies because so many women who have early-onset pre-e choose not to have more children – if you’ve had it once, your chances with another pregnancy are significantly higher.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
@zdenny
It’s funny, how people like to lump things they don’t understand together. The difference between Christians and atheists is that atheists just believe in one less god than Christians do.
The ONLY thing that atheists have in common is their lack of belief in a higher power. PLEASE COMMIT THAT TO MEMORY!
It is very annoying to read your words when I’ve seen CHRISTIAN friends (one of whom was an avid bible study attendee) abort babyies because they were conceived out of wed-lock, or came of a one-night-stand, or the timing wasn’t right, or the baby had some sort of issue (DS or otherwise). I know you’re going to say, “Well, they weren’t REAL Christians.”
Bubpkiss, I say.
I’m a REAL atheist who never had an abortion and who thinks that every child is a gift (but more a gift from my husband’s sperm than from Santa Claus).
Please, if you want to be a REAL Christian, stop judging people. If you can’t do that, then at least try to be less of a bigot.
My apologies, Laura. I don’t mean to yell at your readers, but that kind of remark makes my blood boil. <3
December 15th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
What I really think about the latest Duggar event… I’ve gotta say, I waffle on this.
Ultimately I hope what happens is that Josie makes it through with minimal to no disabilities, that Michelle recovers fully and is never EVER pregnant again, and that this whole event coupled with the Duggars’ intimate knowledge of Mrs. Bates’ late-term miscarriage and all make Jim Bob and Michelle really rethink their grabbiness with God’s blessings. Appreciate the ones you already have, people. Good grief. Stop spinning that roulette wheel, because no matter how much you pray, we are only human and the body can only handle so much before it gives out from sheer exhaustion. It’s a testimony to Michelle’s overall excellent health that her uterus hasn’t jumped out of her body and run for freedom already.
I would also like very much to see an episode of 19 Kids and Counting where Jim Bob goes and gets a vasectomy, because Michelle’s been through enough surgeries.
Yep, when pigs grow wings. I know.
I’m fascinated by them, hope the best for them, but holy cow they irk me at times.
December 15th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I have a few thoughts that are not all completely connected:
Just before I found out about the early delivery, I was thinking that Michelle Duggar was doing something dangerous having so many children, closely spaced, at an older age. I was thinking that I was afraid something would happen to her, and that even though I disagree with what they were doing, I didn’t want to be proven right and hoped she’d make it to menopause without anything bad happening.
I does bother me when people treat birthing a healthy, average baby as a responsibility. As in, as I once heard someone say, “you should stop having children when you are 35 because of the risk of Down syndrome.” I don’t mean to beat a straw man–no one has said anything that extreme here (only in person, to my face). But there’s an untestable genetic disorder in my family, and sometimes I feel pressure from various people to make absolutely sure I don’t bring a child into this world with the disorder. I’m pro-choice, and I think that if someone feels they do not want a child for any reason, they should be able to have an abortion. But I am offended by the insinuation that I should consider it my “responsibility” to abort or avoid conceiving children for the small (and it really is very tiny) chance that I could have a child that would only live to 60 and be confined to a wheelchair. And likewise, I find myself bristling when people treat Michelle Duggar’s continued pregnancies as “irresponsible” because she might bring a special-needs child into the world. She’s already planned on taking care of babies for decades, and has a million other kids who would help. It may not be the ideal situation, but it seems like there would be some benefit to sharing the tasks of raising/socializing with/paying attention to a special-needs child with 17 other at-home children.
That said, I’m still afraid an even greater disaster might strike them after this. If another pregnancy went badly, that would be…bad. And I don’t know how their finances stay afloat with all those kids. And I do feel bad for the older kids in the family, who have to shoulder the burden of parenting at a younger age than most.
Whew, didn’t mean to make this post that long. Thanks for the topic!
December 15th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Good points, KB. I may have to re-think some of what I wrote. You’re right: it’s sticky. On the one hand, I don’t want to blame them for the problems directly or make it sound like I think people should stop after a certain age or with certain risks. I think MOST of my problem stems from how they have so *many* children already that need their attention, and won’t get it now. It’s like, they are healthy. It shouldn’t be a contest of how many blessings you can get out of God. And I do think it was reckless, but I think you made some good points along those lines I am going to have to chew on. Thank YOU for the food for thought!
December 15th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
My problem is that they’re trying to say everyone (well, every Christian who wants to be a “true Christian”) should also have as many babies as they can. I know they’ve softpedaled it as they’ve gotten more famous, but they’re the normal-looking lure for this movement.
There’s so much pro-natalist bullshit out there. Like the whole “pre-eclampsia is most common in first pregnancies” – because I decided not to have a second child because with my first I had early-onset pre-eclampsia, a number of people have repeated that to me.
Well, it’s true. But like I said above – the reason it’s true is because so many women make the choice I did. If you’ve already had pre-eclampsia, your chances of having it again are higher.
But, why even bother telling me that, or bringing it up with Mrs. Duggar, if NOT to encourage us to have more kids? And when it’s brought up in that context, it’s a lie, implying that the risk with second pregnancies is lower. And it’s not for me.
December 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I think that even if Josie had been born at her birth date & everything was fine, I would say the same thing, and many others would as well. If they don’t want people questioning and criticizing their choices and how they raise their kids, then they shouldn’t be on TV all the time. Will Jinger or one of the older girls be appointed as Josie’s “buddy” while Mom & Dad are off doing TV shows and trying to shut down liquor stores? I wish them the best, but let’s not pretend they’re not doing this to witness us all for their version of “The one true way to Christ.”
The same with the blogger Carrie – if they didn’t want people criticizing how they were doing their births and running their home, they shouldn’t have put it out there on multiple blogs, witnessing for the rest of us how wonderful it was. IIRC, the message was that unattended pregnancies and home births were for people who “really” trust god and everyone else was a faithless heathen for having an OB, DEM, or CNM. Not a single person wished her or her baby ill, just as no one is saying that about Josie Duggar. I didn’t read about Carrie and read a single comment that wasn’t full of sympathy and compassion for her and the child who died.
Zdenner, your comments about atheists & children are insulting, and allude to someone who has had no real interactions with people who think differently from him/herself.
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:55 pm
I’ve been lurking for quite awhile, and zdenny’s comment bugged me enough to get me to unlurk, and actually comment.
zdenny – I’m not a Christian… I was raised as one and found a lot of reasons why I just couldn’t continue with that belief system or way of life. I’m not quite an atheist, but I’d say it’s not far from what I think. With those things said – I want to reply to something you said (even if you won’t see this) Life is always a gift. That is the difference between Christians and Atheists. Christians see all human life as a gift from God. The quality of life can be affected by sin. Atheists on the other hand don’t see life as a gift. They only believe that a comfortable life is a gift. … I have multiple chronic illnesses, I’ve gone through two miscarriages in the past six months (they were less than 4 months apart) and there are a lot of other struggles going on for my husband and I… however, we both see the fact we’re alive, and my step kids as a gift…. we both see our lives, no matter how hard, as a wonderful gift, and we are both grateful I am alive, even if life is rough and not “comfortable”… so I for one disprove what you say about atheists and life…. because it is not true in my own life… or the lives of atheists that I know.
Laura – thank you for your blog… I find myself agreeing quite often, and feeling for your story. ((hugs)) Thanks for sharing! You mentioned a book by an abortion doctor in one of your comments above… I’d love to get the info on the book and read it.
It sounds very good. I also wanted to say I agree with what you’ve said in this post. I really hope they stop having kids, not just due to the risk factors that are (and have been) present, but also because it’s not fair to the other kids, for a lot of reasons.
December 24th, 2009 at 1:58 am
I’m not asking anyone to agree,but,as a Christian,I think (as per the bible)we live in a fallen state,and as such,we need to utilize the resources God gave us to deal with the physical existence we’re in right now..things such as Dr’s who give sound medical advice (whom the Duggar’s didn’t listen to,as evidenced by all the back -to- back pregnancies),solid research about pregnancy and childbirth (again,ignored by the Duggar’s),combined with our own intelligence,common sense and reasoning (again,ignored by the Duggar’s).It’s as if they thought they were supernatural and could avoid anything bad ever happening to them.But,just as gravity works the same way with all of us…so do the laws of medicine,and Josie is the one suffering from their recklessness,arrogance,and failure to use common sense when they willingly conceived her at an advanced maternal age.
It also makes me angry they have the nerve to lay this on God..God does NOT will babies to be born 15 weeks early! THAT is the result of the fallen state we now live in,the same one in which they did not take sound advice and take heed of the warnings about back to back pregnancies for over 2 decades and advanced maternal age.
December 24th, 2009 at 7:21 am
J–the book is called “Why I Am an Abortion Doctor” by Suzanne T. Poppema. It was really interesting to read her perspective. It’s kind of expensive at amazon. I just happened to run across a copy at my library and thought it looked intriguing. Don’t know if your library would have it or if you could ILL it or not.
Sondra–I think that those would be precisely my thoughts if I were still a practicing Christian.
December 26th, 2009 at 9:49 am
God gave women a brain, as well as a vagina! I suggest you give your vagina a rest and start using your brain.
December 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am
The only time I ever watched a show with the Duggars was several years ago when it was 14 Kids and Counting. So they’re now up to 19? That’s just plain sick and wrong. And it’s incredibly self-centered and arrogant. Christian values? I never watch TLC anymore because they seem to be all about large freakish families, or families that are “different”, but still “traditional” of course. No gay couples or single parents. TLC would never admit it but they’re going for the “freak factor”, and that’s why people watch this junk. In fact we never watch “reality” tv at all. And sorry but reality is when you don’t know there’s a camera following you, not when it’s in your face.
Large families should not only NOT be tax exempt, but they should pay MORE in taxes. They use far more than their share of resources, they pollute more, they place a much larger burden on the educational system, etc. If you want 19 kids (and nobody can really be a parent to 19 kids) then you better be able to afford them BY YOURSELF, and be prepared to pay the FULL COSTS of your brood. I have four children, and was a single parent at one time. I struggled to be a good parent, work and keep my head above water. I’m sick of these families getting free lunch, reduced or non-existent school fees, etc while the rest of us pay our own way.
Just out of curiosity, who is paying the medical costs for the Duggars to have these kids, especially now that they have a seriously ill child? My bet, it’s TLC. Yep, great Christian values Duggars.
January 6th, 2010 at 1:30 am
This is a really interesting discussion! It’s going to be fascinating to see if the Duggars are going to do anything to avoid pregnancy from here on out. There is abstinence …hello Jim Bob? Get off Michelle! For Pete’s sake, let the poor woman alone! He’s always slobbering all over her and she doesn’t seem to be as goofy for him (or is that just my imagination) but she always winds up pregnant, so I guess she must allow access often. Ick. Anyway, I would imagine that her OB has advised her against having anymore children. Preeclampsia can be deadly and it wouldn’t be too cool to leave 19 orphans, so let’s see if she’s going to use that brain of hers that God gave her. They always seem to forget that God gave us brains to use, not just genitals….
January 6th, 2010 at 8:33 am
@Zdenny: “I think the thinking is pretty clear. Christians have hope in the resurrection of the dead which means the quality of life is really a non-issue compared with eternity.”
I used to believe that, too. When I de-indoctrinated, life and the people in it right here, right now became so much more precious to me. I think life sucks for a lot of people because too many Christians use prayer and the afterlife (with its commensurate suffering rewards) as an excuse to not do more for those in need. Worse, it is an uwitting excuse because they are blinded by church teachings and don’t think critically for themselves.
I realize I am using a broad brush here. There are many devout Christians who really do good works day in and day out for the “glory of God.” I am just appalled by the de-valuation of human existence that certain religions ultimately effect.
On the Duggars, I too am mixed. I’ve only seen a couple of the shows, but catch snippets. I applaud them for their initial self-reliance at least, wanting to wait early in their marriage to have children when they could afford to do so in the way they saw fit. (Even today – post de-indoctrination, if I had children, I’d prefer to be a stay-at-home/work-from-home mom). And the show? Well, they have a hook and snagged a ride on the reality-show train and it seems to be paying off for them (spreading their message).
Good discussion everyone! My 10 cents.
January 6th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
God uses other people to do his will. So doctors arent doing all the work, if God wanted the person to de then they would. God uses everything and everyone d to hi will or teach us a lesson. I completely believe that the duggars are doing what they believe is right. there is nothing wrong with them having children no matter how old or young they are or how man children they already have or dont have. they arent chosing to have children or not have children. If they die before there children are old enough to raise themelves God will care for them and they wont suffer. no person is a mistake and i am greatful that they have 19 children. many people have children and they arent raised Gods way i am glad that the duggars have these children because they are being raised Gods way and they are going to be great inpirations in other peoples lives. Just pray for there family and stop gossiping and putting them down. they arent hurting you and im sure if they knew any of yall they would have a great inpact on your life also. thank you for your time. God Bless <3
January 6th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
just wanted to let you know that the duggars dont go to school they are home schooled so they pay for their own food. they dont have foodstamps or welfare or any of that. they pay all of there medical bills themselves and the money they get from doing the show they help out other families. they built there friend of the families house bigger. they also have a large family. God will provide for them and keep them sane and happy. They are doing Gods will, know your information before brown nosing and talking about someone you dont know anythin about! they are a great family. And just because they have a large family doesnt mean that they are poluting more because they recyle and take better care of the earth than most families. fyi they are a great family! they would do nothing but help you even if they knew what you said about them.
January 13th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
I think it’s too bad that none of their kids came out as homosexual.
Statistically about two of them are probably gay, and from my own observation that frequency is increasing.
It would be the perfect refutation of their ideology: 1) They were not ‘meant’ to mass-reproduce on the scale they are doing, exemplified by some of their children not being the sort to reproduce and 2) An observable short-term evolution adapted to limit overpopulation (which I suspect is why apparently more people are gay: evolution. It’s more complicated, but you’ll have to email me.)
January 24th, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Well you folks it is what it is and ya’ll can get mad but these ppl have their beliefs. Ya’ll probably have some crazy stuff happening in ya’lls life that you wouldnt want ppl talking bad about you for. geez. You should just all be praying for that little miracle and stop harping on the parents. Ya’ll dont have anything better to do??
January 24th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
I saw an ad today for the episode where she has the baby. Apparently, they’re airing a show about it. I wonder how the baby is doing now–it has survived a month at least. I know surviving alone isn’t the only thing to worry about, but, well…at least.
January 25th, 2010 at 11:03 pm
It should be 20 kids and counting….
Daddy needs to practice some self control .
January 26th, 2010 at 10:11 am
Rosa and Teresa both asked who’s paying for the health care premiums for this big family. Would a heatlh care company keep them as clients if they don’t adhere to the Drs. warnings for Ma Dugger to quit having a baby every year or so since it’s so dangerous? Are the Duggars on state aid, and if they are what kind of aid are they getting? The Duggars have never answered these questions on their website or TV show. Why not? I’m not the first one to ask about their finances and how a man who appears not to work supports such a large brood.
When the Duggar girls look back at their growing up years will they find any joy? Taking care of a child is one of the hardest things anyone can do, and for Ma and Pa to force a young girl to watch the younger children, because they are unable to, is a crime. They talk about modesty and responsiblity yet Ma and Pa exhibit neither one. Forcing others to watch your child is totally irresposible and anyone who can’t see that is blind. Also, the birth show of their grandchild was hardly modest.
I wonder what the Duggars would have said if a Dr. told them Michelle needed a hyserectomy. Would she depend on God to straighten things out or do what she has always done….depend on Drs. and medicine when it’s in her interests.
January 27th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
I feel for the Duggars becuase they have a child in the NICU. However, this family has stated repeatedly that they will continue to have children until they no longer can. Michelle is over 40 years old. It is a medical fact that for every year over 35 a woman is the chances of having a baby with Down Syndrome are increased exponentially. It is good that none of their first 18 children don’t have physical or cognitive delays, so shouldn’t that be enough?
I have watched the show several times because I can’t pull my eyes away from it. The original special 16 kids and counting showed an extremely straight-laced fundamentalist christian family. In the years since then the family has become decidedly more lax about their “beliefs”. The most recent shows have footage of the younger kids fighting, throwing fits, not listening to their parents, all of which was completely the opposite of what they showed in their first show.
The kids are taught from the time they are weaned to parent a smaller child by being that child’s “buddy”. The child is required to dress, bathe, comb the hair of, and carry around their buddy. I know that it is impossible for the parents to control that many kids, but to teach your daughters that their only purpose in life is to be a baby factory? Come on now.
I’ve never seen the Duggars visit an orphanage or hospital or anywhere that they can go help people. They just go on vacations and people give them gifts. I’ve seen them help other large families remodel their houses, but if they have enough money to care for that many kids and WANT as many kids as will fit into their house they should sign up for foster kids.
January 27th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
To the author: If you understood faith it is the evidence of things not seen. Unless you are God Almighty, there is no way anyone can know the condition or outcome of any pregnancy and childbirth siutation regardless of age, medical advice, or in your case worldly advice. I have met Michelle Duggar and she is everything she portrays on her show and more. This family is unique because people are not who they ultimately look to in making decisions concerning their family its their Lord. However, if a Christian hits a stumbling block in their life, God could allow people to be used to help them which is how they view the medical assistance aiding in the care of their latest daughter Josie. I pray for their protection from people like you who seem to have a goal of trying to convince readers that the Duggar family should listen to the advice of people like you (who just have a useless opinion of how they should live their lives) instead of their Lord who is truly in control of their entire family’s lives anyway. Those of us who to allow God to lead us in making decisions feel blessed for doing so no matter the outcome. If Josie’s life had not been spared, it would change noithing for Jim Bob and Michelle. They plan to continue having children if God allows it to be and I pray their testimony of faith will have a profound affect on your life as well as others.
January 27th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Hi,
I think that they believe taht children are gifts from God… so why would anyone refuse gifts from God ? that would be one of the principal links to God. When they have children they let God in their lives, a visible God. Why cut this ? they are financially self-suficient.
I heard too that they didn’t identify with the Quiverful movement, saying that it’s not an obligation to have children.
I do agree though that it could be understood as a contradiction, but somehow I think they are really coherent in their beliefs, and the problem lies with their postulates rather than with their reasonning.
As for the links between atheists and abortions… I must say that there certainly are more conservative families who decide to cut relations with their children because their children did something unacceptable to their eyes (being homosexual, having sexual relationships or babies out of wedlocks, having abortions etc). I think more open families that don’t rely on any sacred text teachings can welcome change more easily and accept their children’s situation without sending them to church camp or other horrible places where they try to cure homosexuality for instance.
February 7th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
I seem to have many thoughts and many opinions spinning through my mind after reading many of the posts. There have been comments made by many, claiming different theological standpoints that I tend to agree with. I do wonder how many of us, if given the chance would truly turn down the opportunity to be on a t.v. show that would help to support our own families?
I also find it interesting to see so many criticize this particular family (yes, they obviously have been willing to make themselves available to criticism through their show, etc. but my guess would be that they wouldn’t be terribly bothered by our criticisms anyway) yet, in general I don’t see much criticisms of high-earning, “power parents” who leave their children to be raised by nannies and only are around them during times when it is convenient for them to “show them off”. There are many of these families, that had they been given a special needs child, would undoubtedly have nothing to do with it, as it wouldn’t serve their purpose of furthering their image. Is this not just as irresponsible?
I agree that while there are many risk factors associated with the number of children they have, they are also willing to be the ones to carry the burden of fully taking care of them, financially, educationally, spiritually, without leaving it up to nannies, public schools, etc. to deal with what they don’t themselves have time to “deal” with.
I also find it interesting to see so many opinions posted by people who claim to “not watch the show” or have “seen very little of this family”, how can you have formed a sound opinion with such little background information? I can only hope that I (and I only state “I” because that is the only person I have control over) would not make any of the same judgements on your life based on what little I could claim to know of you through blog posts.
I tend to take the stand that whether I would choose to have 19 children (and the answer is, at this point in my life I definitely would not, though I try to “never say never”) really has nothing to do with the fact that I 100% believe that their brood is a happier, more well-balanced, independent group of humans than many children who have parents only raising one or two. I also have never felt that they, as a family, feel that all people who are “true” Christians should have as many children as God gives them. THey have actually been on record several times stating that they do not feel this is the case, which is made more obvious to me by the many families they interact with (including some of Jim Bob’s family) that do not share this outlook.
February 26th, 2010 at 11:38 am
While we are all breathing a collective sigh of relief that little Josie is still holding her own, I do think that enough is enough.
TLC is promoting excessively large families and using them to make a profit. I believe that the only reason the Duggars are on TLC is for the money…same reasons that Jon and Kate Plus 8 were.
What about how outraged everyone was about Octo-Mom Nadia Sullaman about a year ago now…we celebrated Kate Gosselin and her brood but totally dissed on Nadia. If a doctor implants more than 2- 3 embryos is this not irresponsible regardless of whether you have a TV show or not?
Michelle and Jim Bob appear all wholesome and wonderful but the all mightly dollar is what is driving them to have more kids. How many more at risk pregnancy’s are going to heppen before something is done to stop this nonsense.
That is my two cents, and no it is not all warm and fuzzy feelings…
February 26th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Canadianmom,
The Fact that you can’t see the difference between J&K+8 and the Duggars from that dingbat lunatic, Octopussy Sulemen, is above scary…
I don’t agree with ANY of these people lifestyle, but at least J&K, Ma and Pa Duggar support their own children. They may not have supported them the way they do now, thanks to TLC, but they were the ONLY one’s who supported their large families. Thanks for making me ‘defend’ people I abhor.
Octopussy, has swindled the state of California since before the first child was lab created in the pee-tree disk, by using student loans and injury for her back (in which she carried each and ever single one of her children while collecting workman’s comp) and collecting SSI for her special needs children. She’s not married or partnered, she’s never held a job, pretty much forced her parents to watch and pay for her ‘kids’ while she goes out and about with her life and she’s collected money and food stamps, along with medical, from those that work hard, to support herself and her lab created brood. She ought to be in jail! In other words, she is a con-artist. Nothing more.
February 27th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Its not even about religion at this point. I dont share their beliefs and agree with what you said, but its beside the point. Having more babies would be SELFISH. shes not just risking her life and her babies life because she has other children to take care of. If she gets pregnant again and dies, whos going to take care of her 20 children. Im pretty sure God would prefer for her to be there for her 20 kids over her having yet another baby and dying.
February 27th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Jessica, Not to have these comments go off course, but I had to reply.
NOTHING would change for the children as Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar DON’T parent their own children now. Remember, they have the ‘buddy system’ all ready in place.
Also, if Michelle were to pass away having another, I’m sure Jim Bob already has her replacement in mind and grand thoughts of producing ANOTHER brood of children…
February 28th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
i do watch the show 19 kids and counting and wish the best for the new baby as well as the whole family. Some people think that it is weird to have so many kids and to still be having kids when your children are having your grandchildren but some of us have grandmothers and great grandmothers that were still having babies when their older kids got married and had kids. my own grandmother had her last around the time her older grandchildren were having kids.It is not so unheard of. babies were considered blessings to the parents and the whole family back then and kids had responsibilities and were not spoiled.,had manners and respect . i know people have fewer kids nowandI feel that the duggars and their decision to keep receiving these gifts is up to them. noone should have a feeling that they know she shouldnt have more kids , they need to fix their own lives not dictate what other people should do.
March 1st, 2010 at 12:16 am
christy basse Says: “i know people have fewer kids nowandI feel that the duggars and their decision to keep receiving these gifts is up to them. noone should have a feeling that they know she shouldnt have more kids , they need to fix their own lives not dictate what other people should do.”
People used to believe that drinking and driving was up to the individual as well. That pretty much stopped when a drunk in a pickup slammed into a full school bus in FL and set it on fire.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
“I’ve never seen the Duggars visit an orphanage or hospital or anywhere that they can go help people. They just go on vacations and people give them gifts.”
I know it’s an old reply, but I really hate it when people talk out their bums…
The Duggars have volunteered not only in the United States but abroad. They have volunteered at Children’s Shelters and the Salvation Army. They have also been involved in ministering at the juvenile detention center and jail in Washington County and they have also gone to El Salvador several times to help in the impoverished villages there.
Several of the boys are also volunteer firemen and after the horrible ice storms that occured in their state they went around helping other people in the area clear their properties.
Whether or not you think they are idiots for having all these kids, these are hardly “vacation spots where free stuff was given to them.”
March 9th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
I don’t know where anyone got that big families do not pay taxes, but that is incorrect as a mother of eight who lives in Arkansas I can assure you that we do pay taxes. You don’t even get tax credit for more than three children no matter how many you have.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
I’m going to start commenting as MrsConfused because you might think I was the Alison that posted earlier in this post, but it wasn’t me
March 9th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
to analyst; I dont think drinking and driving should be legal so I dont know why you would bring that up.I didnt even mention drinking or driving in my comment on the duggars. Having alot of kids is not illegal, theres a difference!
March 9th, 2010 at 11:08 pm
christy Says: “to analyst; I dont think drinking and driving should be legal so I dont know why you would bring that up.I didnt even mention drinking or driving in my comment on the duggars. Having alot of kids is not illegal, theres a difference!”
That’s called an analogy.